Higher powers
MJ Lenderman the young rock prince talks about mystical stones, t-shirts with nothing on them, the most swagged-out shoes of the last century (?) and more
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One thing that’s tight about MJ Lenderman — besides the fact that he’s a very funny, sneakily devastating lyricist who put out one of last year’s best albums, Manning Fireworks — is that he’s as comfortable front & center as he is working in an ensemble, or just lending an assist at the margins of someone else’s project. Besides his own songs, like the smacking “Wristwatch,” you might find him duetting with Waxahatchee, on her truly unbeatable “Right Back To It,” playing with the indie-rock band Wednesday (until recently, anyway), or just sitting in as a session dude.
True communitarian s**t you gotta respect.
Another tight thing about him is that his friends call him Jake, and when I called him up the other day I was, like, “Hey man I’m Jonah,” and he replied, “Hey, I’m Jake,” instantly putting us on a homie-to-homie wavelength. This came in handy, because I had to ask him tough questions about, e.g., whether you can really get in steps in Dansko clogs; whether Dansko clogs are the single-most swagged-out shoe of the modern era; whether t-shirts with anything on them are undignified; whether it is cool or wack when people post about “random” phrases they think sound like your lyrics; how much chiller you seem when you talk slow, and whether he had to train himself to be a slow-talker or it just came naturally; and more!
Blackbird Spyplane: I’ve been seeing people do this “Accidental MJ Lenderman”-type thing online with your lyrics, where they post phrases they found in the wild that have Lendermanesque juxtapositions, along the lines of “I’ve got a houseboat docked at the Himbo Dome.” Are you aware of this?
MJ Lenderman: “Yeah, I’ve seen people do that, too.”
Blackbird Spyplane: Do you get a kick out of it, or is there a part of you that’s, like, you’re reducing my songwriting to a shtick?
MJ Lenderman: “There’s one side of it where it’s cool that people think I have such a distinct voice, I guess. On the other hand, it’s sometimes hard to tell if people are into it, or if they’re making fun of me. Or not necessarily making fun of me, but kind of boiling all my music and work into a joke. And there are jokes in the music, but it’s not all there is. But the third side is that when I see people associating me with something I don’t actually identify with, I use that as a learning tool for next time I go and write, to see how I can be better at what I’m trying to get across.”
Blackbird Spyplane: The guy who really inspires this kind of thing is Action Bronson. Are you a big Action Bronson fan?
MJ Lenderman: “Not really, no, but I used to watch F**k, That’s Delicious with my old roommate, and that’s a great show. I like his personality, and I like his friends.”
Blackbird Spyplane: It’s a fantastic show about friendship. Shout out to Spyfriend Action Bronson.
MJ Lenderman: “Shout out to him. I was a really big Alchemist fan when I used to make beats in middle school.”
Blackbird Spyplane: Wow. What rappers do you like?
MJ Lenderman: “When I was experimenting with beatmaking, I think Joey Bada$$ 1999 had just come out, so I listened to that a ton. All my basketball friends liked Maybach Music Group, so I listened to that. I always loved OutKast. More recently I heard that rapper Ka, who just died. His last record, the rapping’s amazing, but the beats are really interesting. It’s more of a pulse than actual drums or something. I haven’t heard anything like it.”
Blackbird Spyplane: R.I.P. to an underground NYC legend. I’m curious, you’re on a big tour right now and we all know there’s no money for most artists in streaming. As far as making a living, it is all about tours and merch, or have the fatcats f**ked that up, too?
MJ Lenderman: “Yeah, we’re in a very lucky position to be touring and selling out shows, so we are able to make some money on the road. This is our first tour on a bus. But, yeah, streaming isn’t giving anybody much money. That would definitely make a huge difference, and maybe it means we have to be on the road more often, which is not necessarily the healthiest — and if it’s all you do, you’re maybe susceptible to losing the creative side that got you there in the first place.”
Blackbird Spyplane: Venues started taking a cut from the merch table, too, right?
MJ Lenderman: “I think that’s very common, at least for venues that are owned by Live Nation or AEG. You see it less with some of the independent venues.”
Blackbird Spyplane: So the places that don’t need the money take it, and the places that do need the money don’t.
MJ Lenderman: “That’s my understanding.”
Blackbird Spyplane: How closely do you consider the way you dress?
MJ Lenderman: “Very closely, but also not much? I haven’t changed my style a ton over the years. I’m basically wearing the same s**t I have for years — just, like, new sizes. My pants got less tight.”
Blackbird Spyplane: God bless. You seem like the type of guy who could either put a hard $20 ceiling on t-shirts, or who says, “Damn, this Van Morrison 1993 tour tee is so good it’s worth the $200 this guy on eBay is asking.”
MJ Lenderman: “Hahaha — well that Van Morrison shirt you’re talking about was a gift. I don’t really enjoy shopping, it’s been a long time since I’ve really needed something. My ex-partner Karly is obsessed with thrift shopping, so she would find a lot of shirts.”
Blackbird Spyplane: I’m intrigued by this Shaq t-shirt you have where he’s playing an electric guitar.
MJ Lenderman: “My friend Will made that shirt, he’s got that band Hotline TNT.”
Blackbird Spyplane: That’s a good band.
MJ Lenderman: “But recently I don’t wanna wear anything that says anything on it at all.”
Blackbird Spyplane: Brother, I’ve been on that same wave. No clothes with words on them. No t-shirts with cartoons on them. This is a bit stodgy of me, and it’s not a hard-and-fast rule, but it’s started feeling… undignified.
MJ Lenderman: “I know how you feel.”
Blackbird Spyplane: I want to ask you about your Dankso clogs. I don’t think I’ve ever said this publicly before, but I think Dansko clogs might be the single most swagged-out shoe of the last hundred years, for men and women alike. I love how they look. Just ugly enough and chunky enough to have a little frisson to them, but also sturdy and chill and time-honored across a bunch of contexts, in a Blundstones kind of way. I’ve never actually worn or even tried on a pair, though. Maybe I’ll finally get there now that I’m saying it. What draws you to them?
MJ Lenderman: “Yeah, I mean, everything you just said. The simplicity, and the chunkiness. I feel like if you had to look up the definition of the word ‘shoe,’ they’re what would come up. Also my body feels better when I wear them. I’ve had mine since probably 2019, and I’ve gone through phases where I wear Sambas or something, but I found that going through a whole tour with sneakers like that, I start having knee problems, ankle problems. That doesn’t happen with the Danksos. Also they give me a few inches. I’m like 6’3” in them.”
Blackbird Spyplane: I know cooks and painters love Danksos. Can you actually get in steps wearing them, or are they more for doing a lot of standing?
MJ Lenderman: “I was always a little hesitant about that, but I ended up taking them to Japan and did a ton of walking in them, and it didn’t bother me.”
Blackbird Spyplane: You have a well-known reputation as a slow talker — the type of person who seems very comfortable with silences, whereas a lot of people rush to fill them in. Is that something you had to train yourself to do?
MJ Lenderman: “No, that was very natural. I don’t know what it is. People always thought I was stoned or something. Usually, I was not…”
Blackbird Spyplane: That’s better than the alternative, where people think you’re all hopped up and nervous. The aesthetics of talking slow are, ‘This guy’s chill.’”
MJ Lenderman: “Sometimes if I’m around someone and they’re anxious and trying to fill up all the space, I’ll try to back up even more. I think anxious energy is contagious, so hopefully me getting even more relaxed will calm them down a little bit.”
Blackbird Spyplane: I read that your parents made each other cassette mixtapes when they started dating. You’re a young analog respecter: Are mixtapes gonna come back? Have they already? They’re so much more charming than sharing a streaming playlist…
MJ Lenderman: “I personally have never made one of those. I’ve probably made a CD mixtape. But I could totally see the cassette mixtape coming back. The more time that passes, that becomes a more magical thing for a younger group of people. I got into cassettes in high school because I still had a car that could take them, and they were really cheap. Even for new music. So I developed a pretty good collection.”
Blackbird Spyplane: All right, finally, you sent over a photo of a beautiful stone you keep in your pocket at all times. What’s the story?
MJ Lenderman: “A couple years ago my sister was at my house in Asheville and noticed I have this Laraaji record, ‘Om Namah Shivaya.’ I don’t know what that prayer means, but she recognized it from the meditation she does, and got very excited. She has a new age-iness to her spirituality, I guess. So she gave me this rock, which is supposed to connect me with the higher power Laraaji is singing about.”
Blackbird Spyplane: You’re talking to an extremely pro-Laraaji sletter. He did one of the loveliest Spyplane Interviews. But I don’t think I know that song. Is it one of the classic 10-minute-zither-drone style tracks?
MJ Lenderman: “No, there’s a drum machine, and he’s singing. It’s very positive. I have it on vinyl, but it’s also on his album Vision Songs. That really got me through the first few months of Covid.”
Blackbird Spyplane: Where did your sister get the stone? A crystal store? A river bed?
MJ Lenderman: “She probably found it at a new age store, yeah. It has a name and properties, I think, but more importantly it represents her to me. So no matter what pants I wear, it’s stayed in my left pocket for two years. She actually just got me another rock for Christmas, so now I have to carry around that one, too. It’s gonna start to get a little heavy.”
MJ Lenderman is on tour now. His newest album, Manning Fireworks, is fantastic, and you can find it here.
P🌀E🪨A🌀C🪨E🌀 til next time
— J & E
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Missed MJ’s show in New Orleans (bummed), love danskos from years in the kitchen also in New Orleans (rad mention), have to do some thinking about whether 32 is too young to care about being dignified.
Thanks as usual Yung Spyplane!
Was inspired by this one to buy some Dankso’s and I’ll be damned if they aren’t comfy