Excellent reporting. Re: declining to tell people your rent (which in this case I'm sure is for a good reason re: their relationship with their landlords or something)-- reminds me of a fave maxim: tell anyone who asks what you get paid, what your rent is, etc.
The culture of silence around expenses in this society is legit a tool of capitalist and anti-union forces. 🤷🏻♀️
I was at Ven a couple of Saturdays ago for the first time and the place was buzzing. I didn't leave with anything but really wanted to find a way to support Chris + his team in some way.
On the way home, I wondered if more of these types of shops might opt out of ecomm and instead run a *Shop + Substack* strategy.
As a client, one of the key reasons to visit Ven is the team's curation and perspective. What's coming up, what's out, brands they love, colors they're buying, why they're excited about X new brand...
I would happily pay $5 a month to get that knowledge delivered and support Ven between big purchases.
For the shop, it's a predictable revenue stream. For the client, it means being a part of the community and maybe it comes with added benefits (events, sales, launches, etc). For Jonah and Erin, it could be a very fun consulting project :)
Ben & Chris are treasures... As a poor restaurant worker who worked around the corner from MAC 15 years ago I was in there a LOT during my decade in the City, almost exclusively shopping the sale rack. They treated me as they would any other client, showing me things they knew I would like and even letting me know, "hey you know we're putting this or that on sale in the next couple of days, we'll hold one for you." Met Cookie Mueller AND John Waters in there on separate occasions, they gave my partner & I tips & hook-ups when we went to Antwerp one year, and are generally just incredibly sweet, genuine folks. The Bay Area certainly has it's drawbacks (I mean, where doesn't?) but the Ospital family-sui generis, regular generous, real deal real ones-are a vital thread in the very special fabric of SF.
i have worked in "big box" luxury (not an oxymoron, unfortunately) for 20+ years. If I had the guts to open a store, I would also forgo on-line sales. As stated in the article, the financials are not in your favor (like gambling, it seems tempting, cuz every once in a while, you win--but the odds are not in your favor). Between the wear/returners, the ones who found it cheaper elsewhere, the ones who buy multi sizes and the implied ENTITLEMENT (to free shipping, free returns, 30 day + return policies for original form of payment, returns for imagined defects--I could go on) this is not a game you will win. I agree 100% with the focus on building a real (not marketing-speak) community with CUSTOMERS WHO UNDERSTAND YOUR VALUE.
Thank you for this. Always great to be reminded how important the small shops are, and it’s inspiring to hear that a few newer shops are trying to stave off e-commerce for as long as they can. I stopped by Ven. a few weeks ago, and it’s a beautiful shop. The space itself combined with a few good interactions I had with Chris Green and one of his employees are things that you couldn’t get through a screen. It was also very bustling on a Saturday a little after opening time, so the shop has clearly found an audience who wants the in-person experience.
And lovely, too, to hear from the Ospitals about all this, as they are legends, and MAC is a mecca for sure. I haven’t been in some years, but still have fond memories of chatting with them on one visit and, when we mentioned that we were heading to Zuni Café after, Chris made some excellent recommendations on what to order from the menu. Sure, it’s something we could have read about online, I guess, but that in-person interaction has stayed with me in a way that something I read on a screen never would have.
Can confirm Ven Space is amazing and the staff are super friendly and knowledgeable. And whilst the average price does skew higher, there are more accessible pieces from players like Lady White Co and MHL as well. There's something about seeing cool staff members kitted out in their own way, that opens up the imagination on how different brand pieces can come together cohesively. This is definitely something missing online (although ShopNeighbor styling is the closest thing to this, IMO)
I was recently at egg trading in London where you get insane customer attention, perhaps by a roaring fire on a rainy day? They have a cult following at this point but we got to talking about the role that e-commerce plays in their sales. I, personally, hadn't bought anything from them in many years because I felt like I wanted the in-store experience to try things on. It sounded like their base customers visit 1-2x/ year and then order the same styles in different fabrics or color ways online. Because they don't really introduce many new silhouettes, this is a really viable model for repeat online sales. Evan Kinori has a similar bent and you essentially know what you're getting once you've visited and tried things on in person.
Yes, that's a nice way to think about it, and echoes a lot of how I (Jonah) prefer to buy things, which is to cop more freely online after first establishing some IRL base line of trust / familiarity with either a designer's work or a shop's judgment (like Neighbour) ... or, to your point, *not* copping online even then, because the in person experience is so nice (and you buy less that way)
Thank you! I love this topic. More IRL shopping please! Online shopping brings me no joy and often frustration. I try to limit my online purchases to brands I know well and am pretty certain of the fit and quality. For me, the joy in shopping comes from going to a physical space that is a reflection of the owners vision - touching, seeing and experiencing the "vibe" of a place and the people who work there. So much respect for independent retailers that can make it work without e-commerce. You enrich our communities!
Last year I wanted to exchange a gift I received from my favorite store in Austin - "Take Heart". At first I was surprised that they did not have a straight forward online process for exchanges - I had to call the shop and speak to the manager several times to get the transaction completed but it ended up being a delightful experience. I was charmed by how helpful, kind and thoughtful the manager was with my exchange. I will take that any day over an anonymous online experience even though it took more time and effort. It was worth it to make a connection with a real person!
Visited Rising Star Laundry last Wednesday and can confirm that Nicole & Brody are very kind and made the shopping experience friendly and warm! I didn't pick up anything this time around but it's refreshing knowing that there is a shop one bus stop away, where I can walk in and just chat about what they're carrying. Excited to see what they do.
What a wonderful article . The thing these stores will all have in common is the longevity of them. I’ve visited Ven and I’ve felt amazing leaving . Even thought I didn’t buy anything they made me feel like a regular. I want to build something like this in my hometown ( Houston ) and at the beginning I thought how could I build to something and it be profitable and cool , but then I saw the quote “ fun non-profitable “ and completely change the way of seeing it haha! I know ofc it has to be somewhat profitable but I want cool things for cool people. Anyways this article reinforced everything I’ve been trying to do. Thank you spy plane !! See you in about 10 years !
Looks like norse store just closed down their webshop for good(?) highlighting the in person experience. Curios to see how they build their digital presence post webshop and if they put less emphasis on “clean” product photos + are there any other stores that have rolled back e-comm?
interesting to see that they are keeping the norse projects house line stuff online -- much like chris at ven said he could see himself possibly one day doing with the ven in-house clothes
Ye, I’ve always found the difference between store and projects sites a bit confusing online. But norse projects is really quite ubiquitous online anyway compared to the ven in-house argument. Wonder if their online sales trended more towards the more affordable norse line compared to some of their more expensive offerings and if that has something to say
AP Shop in Lakeside, Michigan is another Midwest shop with no web store. Brand list is incredibly deep and their home goods store 1 door down is also popping. The owner and her husband are lovely people, they do retail arguably better than anyone in Chicago/Midwest. Tusk holds it down too though
stopped by RSL for the first time today after months of anticipation, incredible store. so exciting for the bay. touched an mfpen shirt with my palms and couldn't leave without it
As a small brand it was really great to read the experience of other independent shop owners who have chosen the path of just IRL over virtual/ tandem. I have a little shop in Oaxaca, MX and we don’t really sell online, which always gives me deep anxiety because it’s pretty much expected that we should. Generally though I feel like whenever we do try sell online, no matter how interesting or interactive I try to make the experience work, it still just looks like a janky and boring online store, taking away from the uniqueness and humanity imbedded in our work, how I hate it! But the actual physical store, it’s my interior universe/temple realized and clients immediately get it when they enter, it’s incredible to be there helping clients try everything on, telling them how each piece was made, etc which online just cannot replicate. My anxiety has been calmed by this piece, thank you! 🌷
being able to have regular, meaningful in-person relationships with shops has been one of my favorite parts of my time living in portland, or (huuuuuuuge shout outs to stand up comedy & frances may and their amazing crews) - being able to inquire, gossip, and laugh about product makes each and every thing i buy from them so much more meaningful to me.
Hearing about RSL makes me homesick! I can’t think of many stores like this in LA, perhaps because of how antithetical this city’s car-dependent infrastructure is to storefronts you just pop into for fun because you’re in the area.
If anyone has recommendations for stores like this in LA, I’d love to hear about them. I love the experience and wealth of combined knowledge about Japanese artisans at Tortoise and it’s probably the best example I can think of despite it having a comprehensive webshop.
Excellent reporting. Re: declining to tell people your rent (which in this case I'm sure is for a good reason re: their relationship with their landlords or something)-- reminds me of a fave maxim: tell anyone who asks what you get paid, what your rent is, etc.
The culture of silence around expenses in this society is legit a tool of capitalist and anti-union forces. 🤷🏻♀️
Hey this article is about 500$ pants.
Yes, I also read the article, thank you! 🫡👍
I was at Ven a couple of Saturdays ago for the first time and the place was buzzing. I didn't leave with anything but really wanted to find a way to support Chris + his team in some way.
On the way home, I wondered if more of these types of shops might opt out of ecomm and instead run a *Shop + Substack* strategy.
As a client, one of the key reasons to visit Ven is the team's curation and perspective. What's coming up, what's out, brands they love, colors they're buying, why they're excited about X new brand...
I would happily pay $5 a month to get that knowledge delivered and support Ven between big purchases.
For the shop, it's a predictable revenue stream. For the client, it means being a part of the community and maybe it comes with added benefits (events, sales, launches, etc). For Jonah and Erin, it could be a very fun consulting project :)
Ben & Chris are treasures... As a poor restaurant worker who worked around the corner from MAC 15 years ago I was in there a LOT during my decade in the City, almost exclusively shopping the sale rack. They treated me as they would any other client, showing me things they knew I would like and even letting me know, "hey you know we're putting this or that on sale in the next couple of days, we'll hold one for you." Met Cookie Mueller AND John Waters in there on separate occasions, they gave my partner & I tips & hook-ups when we went to Antwerp one year, and are generally just incredibly sweet, genuine folks. The Bay Area certainly has it's drawbacks (I mean, where doesn't?) but the Ospital family-sui generis, regular generous, real deal real ones-are a vital thread in the very special fabric of SF.
That’s what’s up
i have worked in "big box" luxury (not an oxymoron, unfortunately) for 20+ years. If I had the guts to open a store, I would also forgo on-line sales. As stated in the article, the financials are not in your favor (like gambling, it seems tempting, cuz every once in a while, you win--but the odds are not in your favor). Between the wear/returners, the ones who found it cheaper elsewhere, the ones who buy multi sizes and the implied ENTITLEMENT (to free shipping, free returns, 30 day + return policies for original form of payment, returns for imagined defects--I could go on) this is not a game you will win. I agree 100% with the focus on building a real (not marketing-speak) community with CUSTOMERS WHO UNDERSTAND YOUR VALUE.
Real talk
Thank you for this. Always great to be reminded how important the small shops are, and it’s inspiring to hear that a few newer shops are trying to stave off e-commerce for as long as they can. I stopped by Ven. a few weeks ago, and it’s a beautiful shop. The space itself combined with a few good interactions I had with Chris Green and one of his employees are things that you couldn’t get through a screen. It was also very bustling on a Saturday a little after opening time, so the shop has clearly found an audience who wants the in-person experience.
And lovely, too, to hear from the Ospitals about all this, as they are legends, and MAC is a mecca for sure. I haven’t been in some years, but still have fond memories of chatting with them on one visit and, when we mentioned that we were heading to Zuni Café after, Chris made some excellent recommendations on what to order from the menu. Sure, it’s something we could have read about online, I guess, but that in-person interaction has stayed with me in a way that something I read on a screen never would have.
Can confirm Ven Space is amazing and the staff are super friendly and knowledgeable. And whilst the average price does skew higher, there are more accessible pieces from players like Lady White Co and MHL as well. There's something about seeing cool staff members kitted out in their own way, that opens up the imagination on how different brand pieces can come together cohesively. This is definitely something missing online (although ShopNeighbor styling is the closest thing to this, IMO)
I was recently at egg trading in London where you get insane customer attention, perhaps by a roaring fire on a rainy day? They have a cult following at this point but we got to talking about the role that e-commerce plays in their sales. I, personally, hadn't bought anything from them in many years because I felt like I wanted the in-store experience to try things on. It sounded like their base customers visit 1-2x/ year and then order the same styles in different fabrics or color ways online. Because they don't really introduce many new silhouettes, this is a really viable model for repeat online sales. Evan Kinori has a similar bent and you essentially know what you're getting once you've visited and tried things on in person.
Yes, that's a nice way to think about it, and echoes a lot of how I (Jonah) prefer to buy things, which is to cop more freely online after first establishing some IRL base line of trust / familiarity with either a designer's work or a shop's judgment (like Neighbour) ... or, to your point, *not* copping online even then, because the in person experience is so nice (and you buy less that way)
Thank you! I love this topic. More IRL shopping please! Online shopping brings me no joy and often frustration. I try to limit my online purchases to brands I know well and am pretty certain of the fit and quality. For me, the joy in shopping comes from going to a physical space that is a reflection of the owners vision - touching, seeing and experiencing the "vibe" of a place and the people who work there. So much respect for independent retailers that can make it work without e-commerce. You enrich our communities!
Last year I wanted to exchange a gift I received from my favorite store in Austin - "Take Heart". At first I was surprised that they did not have a straight forward online process for exchanges - I had to call the shop and speak to the manager several times to get the transaction completed but it ended up being a delightful experience. I was charmed by how helpful, kind and thoughtful the manager was with my exchange. I will take that any day over an anonymous online experience even though it took more time and effort. It was worth it to make a connection with a real person!
Visited Rising Star Laundry last Wednesday and can confirm that Nicole & Brody are very kind and made the shopping experience friendly and warm! I didn't pick up anything this time around but it's refreshing knowing that there is a shop one bus stop away, where I can walk in and just chat about what they're carrying. Excited to see what they do.
Taking the bus one stop to a Yoko Sakamoto and James Coward stockist?? The dream !
What a wonderful article . The thing these stores will all have in common is the longevity of them. I’ve visited Ven and I’ve felt amazing leaving . Even thought I didn’t buy anything they made me feel like a regular. I want to build something like this in my hometown ( Houston ) and at the beginning I thought how could I build to something and it be profitable and cool , but then I saw the quote “ fun non-profitable “ and completely change the way of seeing it haha! I know ofc it has to be somewhat profitable but I want cool things for cool people. Anyways this article reinforced everything I’ve been trying to do. Thank you spy plane !! See you in about 10 years !
🫡
Looks like norse store just closed down their webshop for good(?) highlighting the in person experience. Curios to see how they build their digital presence post webshop and if they put less emphasis on “clean” product photos + are there any other stores that have rolled back e-comm?
wow that's a major development ! wonder if others will follow suit
interesting to see that they are keeping the norse projects house line stuff online -- much like chris at ven said he could see himself possibly one day doing with the ven in-house clothes
Ye, I’ve always found the difference between store and projects sites a bit confusing online. But norse projects is really quite ubiquitous online anyway compared to the ven in-house argument. Wonder if their online sales trended more towards the more affordable norse line compared to some of their more expensive offerings and if that has something to say
AP Shop in Lakeside, Michigan is another Midwest shop with no web store. Brand list is incredibly deep and their home goods store 1 door down is also popping. The owner and her husband are lovely people, they do retail arguably better than anyone in Chicago/Midwest. Tusk holds it down too though
Great to know, thank you
stopped by RSL for the first time today after months of anticipation, incredible store. so exciting for the bay. touched an mfpen shirt with my palms and couldn't leave without it
Nice!
As a small brand it was really great to read the experience of other independent shop owners who have chosen the path of just IRL over virtual/ tandem. I have a little shop in Oaxaca, MX and we don’t really sell online, which always gives me deep anxiety because it’s pretty much expected that we should. Generally though I feel like whenever we do try sell online, no matter how interesting or interactive I try to make the experience work, it still just looks like a janky and boring online store, taking away from the uniqueness and humanity imbedded in our work, how I hate it! But the actual physical store, it’s my interior universe/temple realized and clients immediately get it when they enter, it’s incredible to be there helping clients try everything on, telling them how each piece was made, etc which online just cannot replicate. My anxiety has been calmed by this piece, thank you! 🌷
🔥
being able to have regular, meaningful in-person relationships with shops has been one of my favorite parts of my time living in portland, or (huuuuuuuge shout outs to stand up comedy & frances may and their amazing crews) - being able to inquire, gossip, and laugh about product makes each and every thing i buy from them so much more meaningful to me.
Hearing about RSL makes me homesick! I can’t think of many stores like this in LA, perhaps because of how antithetical this city’s car-dependent infrastructure is to storefronts you just pop into for fun because you’re in the area.
If anyone has recommendations for stores like this in LA, I’d love to hear about them. I love the experience and wealth of combined knowledge about Japanese artisans at Tortoise and it’s probably the best example I can think of despite it having a comprehensive webshop.
Tortoise is great. If you missed the mention in the piece, check out New High Mart in Los Feliz too !
I need to check it out. I was worried when I saw people online saying it had closed down, but their website is still up, so I’m not sure.
it's a funky operation, might be appointment-only now