I usually feel like a dinosaur because I actually am Gen X and I still do often view the world through what usually seems like an ever-more-anachronistic lens of aversion to selling out (at least when it comes to creative endeavors), so it’s nice to see the case against scaling up and “getting the bag” made so well here. There is, of course, the $5 shows/Dischord records model that resonated for me in my youth, but the example that has stuck with me for years and years has always been the NY food legend Kenny Shopsin (definitely not a Gen X-er) once grousing about chefs who would scale up by opening multiple restaurants, asking something to the effect of, “Why the [expletive] would you open more restaurants instead of making the one restaurant you already have everything you want it to be?”
> If you needed a moral maxim for the 21st century, a principle to help you determine right action, you could do a lot worse than “Don’t take the money.” One of the reasons you know it’s right is that people rarely get credit for not taking the money. Simple refusal — “no thanks”—generates no headlines, not even much conversation, but it’s happening all the time, all around us, people not taking the money, in amounts very large and very small. Refusing to establish an exchange rate for a certain kind of art, or work, or care.
Also the referenced Bleachers song worms its way into my head often. It's nice to have a maxim with a theme song.
An insightful and nuanced take, as usual. Sometimes we get the bag, sometimes the bag gets us; but the third, secret option - declining the bag - hasn't received its due. These days it is harder and also more important to resist the seemingly inevitable Capitalist grindset, while saving mindspace for the appreciation and production of fine things. 🙏
Idk, it feels like so much of this conversation boils down to the whole "no ethical consumption under capitalism" conversation which should really be "no ethical existence under capitalism." The truth is that at every point in our lives, the big corporations have some control over what we do and how we do it. It's kind of why I have a hard time generally with the idea of "selling out" now, like with the Kurt Vile example, he fully admitted that it was like "well I can sell my music or I can struggle to take care of my kids so it is what it is." That's kind of where we're all at to varying degrees, some of us working jobs owned by companies or who do business with people we may not support or agree with, some who have tried to escape that but still have to participate in a housing market where maybe we're paying a mortgage to a major bank or paying rent to somebody who does unethical shit with their properties, our cars use gas or maybe we own a Tesla which is it's own disaster. So many of the medicines we take are manufactured in a country currently engaged in massive human rights abuses. Hell, two of the biggest internet webhosts are Amazon and Google, so this whole endeavor of just typing this comment is fraught with issues.
The reality is that as long as this is the system that exists, we're all beholden to it whether we like it or not. All we can do is try to make the best choices we can and minimize the damage we do through our unwilling participation and push back and speak out wherever we can. I think when we see people who are actively relishing in the harm they're causing that's one thing, but I'm not going to begrudge everyone else who's just trying to get by.
maybe it's pointless but i think it could be helpful to make distinctions between things where we can actually say no and seek better alternatives by ourselves (even if it's a bit hard or uncomfortable) like clothes or apps, and cases where the structures are deeply rigged and any sort of significant change requires long-term collective action (which we can at least acknowledge, call out, and push for!)
i think blurring/erasing/invisibilizing the line between those distinct scenarios is part of what Big _____ wants to happen so we just feel completely overwhelmed and helpless towards The System as a whole and give up completely
ps: dont get me wrong im a big proponent of doing nothing if you feel like it, but at least while being aware and passively support others who choose to Do Something
I agree with this for sure. And I mean, I still try to do what I can where I can, I just think we also have increasingly found ourselves...maybe judging people isn't the right phrase (or maybe it is) for the choices they make while just trying to survive. Like I don't shop at Wal-Mart because I think it's a shitty corporation but in my hometown they don't have any type of grocery store except a Wal-Mart in the next town over, so I'm not going to impose that sort of moral judgement on people for doing what they have to do in order to eat or whatever.
I think I used the example in another comment about Aramark - Aramark actively donates to lobbying groups that want to expand the private prison system because they benefit from it by signing contracts with private prison companies to provide food, uniforms, etc. But where I went to college, Aramark was the food provider for all of campus, so if you wanted to eat on campus you had to give money to a corporation that I would argue is at best wildly unethical and at worst actively evil. And I went to a regional college in a pretty poor state so it's not like going out to eat off campus or doing things like that was a viable option for a lot of people.
I guess it just feels like seeking better alternatives is a privilege that some have and others don't, and the people who have it should use it for sure, but understand that not everyone can. The worst part right now is it feels like the powers that be are doing everything they can to make it so no one has a choice.
I want to push back against a thing that pops up - the "well, it's complicated." First, that framing only justifies inaction, it creates an excuse for not taking a stand or changing things, and conflating ordinary consumption with bag-chasing erases meaningful distinctions. Second, it's NOT complicated! A lot of things people do for money are bad! Those things can be UNDERSTANDABLE, the reasons people do them can be sympathetic, we're all getting screwed over by capitalism here. But it's still bad to mortgage your art, image, and relationship with your listener to a bank commercial, and it really just gets worse these days as the parasocial nature of the internet makes them ask for more and more of you. Anyway!
As a fellow oldhead, I really loved this one. While I don't make any claims to being Buddhist -this conversation reminds me of the principle of "right livelihood." Our labor is part of our lives and as such should be moving towards generosity and composed of peaceful actions (as best we can). Earnest I know!
Agree with others here that this can be complicated. I work at an academic library and the university does things with their money that I certainly don't approve of. But I love working with our students and that tradeoff is something that feels justified. If I had the opportunity to license a song to support my kid I would, but no to Raytheon.
and how do we reconcile the message of this post with the platform on which it is published (the one that recently took 100m from a16z and then started sending out push notifs with swastikas)
I've been wondering about this too. I think the Plane could easily either just switch to their own dedicated site or use IIRC Ghost as a platform (there are a few other sletters that have switched to it, I think)
But presumably even if they were to switch to their own site or some other platform, if they still wanted to collect subscription dues they'd have to use venmo or shopify or paypal or any of the other systems that all have their own varying forms of ethical issues.
Venmo and Shopify and Paypal aren't directly working with literal Nazis and then saying they feel a moral obligation to work with Nazis in the name of free speech or wetf
To be clear, I'm not defending substack by any stretch, and if BBSP went to another platform I'd follow them there and probably feel better about it. But the two points I'm getting at are that a lot of these sites are backended or bankrolled or otherwise supported in ways we don't love, and I mean...at the end of the day, we're all a little complicit by continuing to subscribe and comment here, right? We're all forcibly embroiled in ethically murky choices daily through no fault of our own. The place I went to undergrad used Aramark Corp for food service, and students were required to buy a meal plan on campus, and Aramark makes a ton of money through private prison contracts as well, so by going to college and trying to educate myself and become a better person, which I hope I did, I also had to contribute a little bit of my tuition dollars to an objectively shitty corporation.
Shopify actually has been challenged on that multiple times for hosting and supporting webstores that sell Nazi merch (not just talking about Yeezy Supply either).
personally my issue with Substack is less about their free-speech approach and more about the increasingly walled garden they are building, in detriment of the open web
they want to be just another platform and own the content so they can monetize it
now people don't have blogs or newsletters, they have "substacks" and i think that sucks so much
“They’re reminding us that, even in 2025, things can be made, and life can be lived, on other terms.” If you didn’t stick those commas in there I might have breezed by this. But you know how to write dude. Loved reading this so much.
I wish that you would leave substack— sticking it out here is I think worse than taking advertising because it creates a moral complication for everyone who wants to continue to read your newsletter! I personally want to delete my sub stack app, but there are a few newsletters that I can’t let go of and that’s holding me back from doing what is clearly the right thing. I know I’m wrong for not quitting but it is even more swagless for you guys because you guys have clout!
My issue is that they not only are hosting neo-nazi newsletters that explicitly advocate for white superiority and supremacy but are also boosting those newsletters algorithmically. I find that extremely disturbing and do not want to support that in anyway. Some of my favorite newsletters have already moved thankfully. But I do think larger newsletters like Spyplane could have a big impact if they objected.
IMO I don’t mind when an artist or company or what have you, decides to take the check from a Big Evil Soulless Company. I like to view it as “ let me just do this quick and easy thing that probably takes little to no effort and make $$$ that will then fund this beautiful independent utopia im building for my family and my community”. The recent Toro y Moi Mcondalds collab is a great example, sure its an evil company that is poisoning the world but if they want to throw the bag his way that will fund his life, music, his cool new store that he probably employs a few people at,then have at it. Its situations like the Our Legacy/LVMH that I cant help but scoff. Because they most likely got too big for their britches and chose to expand quite a bit they now need the backing of a bigger player. The problem with that is now you’re at the behest of this monster because its going to want its ROI and then some from you, you have essentially tainted your independent utopian well by letting a company like LVMH in.
You know what would be even more radical tho? Tell us how much money you make thru this gig and what it takes (beyond immaculate taste, etc.) to make it as a writer without taking those corny ad dollars. Serious request.
Haha I started working in magazines out of college two decades ago 👴 and have been a journalist ever since. I've benefited from tons of great editors over that time.
Having something unique to say, a strong POV, seems to be fairly requisite for crowdfunding-era success, and publishing consistently is pretty key if you're going to ask people to pay for your writing. But there's no one blueprint. For our part we started this sletter at our kitchen table in 2020 when the "space" was young, and we have improvised & made everything up along the way. Generally I'll say that reading a lot of good writing all the time is the best way to become a stronger writer yourself.
As far as current nonfiction journalism, short- and longform, Rachel Aviv is one of the truly great magazine writers, Patrick Radden Keefe, too, Jon Mooallem, Vinson Cunningham, Kelefa Sanneh
As far as classic GOATS Jamaica Kincaid, Denis Johnson, Kennedy Fraser, and The Sentence God PG Wodehouse
I usually feel like a dinosaur because I actually am Gen X and I still do often view the world through what usually seems like an ever-more-anachronistic lens of aversion to selling out (at least when it comes to creative endeavors), so it’s nice to see the case against scaling up and “getting the bag” made so well here. There is, of course, the $5 shows/Dischord records model that resonated for me in my youth, but the example that has stuck with me for years and years has always been the NY food legend Kenny Shopsin (definitely not a Gen X-er) once grousing about chefs who would scale up by opening multiple restaurants, asking something to the effect of, “Why the [expletive] would you open more restaurants instead of making the one restaurant you already have everything you want it to be?”
I'm reminded of this blog post from Robin Sloan, (who's novels are amazing, and blog is unmatched) : https://www.robinsloan.com/notes/dont-take-the-money/
> If you needed a moral maxim for the 21st century, a principle to help you determine right action, you could do a lot worse than “Don’t take the money.” One of the reasons you know it’s right is that people rarely get credit for not taking the money. Simple refusal — “no thanks”—generates no headlines, not even much conversation, but it’s happening all the time, all around us, people not taking the money, in amounts very large and very small. Refusing to establish an exchange rate for a certain kind of art, or work, or care.
Also the referenced Bleachers song worms its way into my head often. It's nice to have a maxim with a theme song.
Robin is the man, and an East Bay Legend ... his last couple zines were cool, I need to spend more time on his blog, this is a great paragraph
An insightful and nuanced take, as usual. Sometimes we get the bag, sometimes the bag gets us; but the third, secret option - declining the bag - hasn't received its due. These days it is harder and also more important to resist the seemingly inevitable Capitalist grindset, while saving mindspace for the appreciation and production of fine things. 🙏
Idk, it feels like so much of this conversation boils down to the whole "no ethical consumption under capitalism" conversation which should really be "no ethical existence under capitalism." The truth is that at every point in our lives, the big corporations have some control over what we do and how we do it. It's kind of why I have a hard time generally with the idea of "selling out" now, like with the Kurt Vile example, he fully admitted that it was like "well I can sell my music or I can struggle to take care of my kids so it is what it is." That's kind of where we're all at to varying degrees, some of us working jobs owned by companies or who do business with people we may not support or agree with, some who have tried to escape that but still have to participate in a housing market where maybe we're paying a mortgage to a major bank or paying rent to somebody who does unethical shit with their properties, our cars use gas or maybe we own a Tesla which is it's own disaster. So many of the medicines we take are manufactured in a country currently engaged in massive human rights abuses. Hell, two of the biggest internet webhosts are Amazon and Google, so this whole endeavor of just typing this comment is fraught with issues.
The reality is that as long as this is the system that exists, we're all beholden to it whether we like it or not. All we can do is try to make the best choices we can and minimize the damage we do through our unwilling participation and push back and speak out wherever we can. I think when we see people who are actively relishing in the harm they're causing that's one thing, but I'm not going to begrudge everyone else who's just trying to get by.
maybe it's pointless but i think it could be helpful to make distinctions between things where we can actually say no and seek better alternatives by ourselves (even if it's a bit hard or uncomfortable) like clothes or apps, and cases where the structures are deeply rigged and any sort of significant change requires long-term collective action (which we can at least acknowledge, call out, and push for!)
i think blurring/erasing/invisibilizing the line between those distinct scenarios is part of what Big _____ wants to happen so we just feel completely overwhelmed and helpless towards The System as a whole and give up completely
ps: dont get me wrong im a big proponent of doing nothing if you feel like it, but at least while being aware and passively support others who choose to Do Something
I agree with this for sure. And I mean, I still try to do what I can where I can, I just think we also have increasingly found ourselves...maybe judging people isn't the right phrase (or maybe it is) for the choices they make while just trying to survive. Like I don't shop at Wal-Mart because I think it's a shitty corporation but in my hometown they don't have any type of grocery store except a Wal-Mart in the next town over, so I'm not going to impose that sort of moral judgement on people for doing what they have to do in order to eat or whatever.
I think I used the example in another comment about Aramark - Aramark actively donates to lobbying groups that want to expand the private prison system because they benefit from it by signing contracts with private prison companies to provide food, uniforms, etc. But where I went to college, Aramark was the food provider for all of campus, so if you wanted to eat on campus you had to give money to a corporation that I would argue is at best wildly unethical and at worst actively evil. And I went to a regional college in a pretty poor state so it's not like going out to eat off campus or doing things like that was a viable option for a lot of people.
I guess it just feels like seeking better alternatives is a privilege that some have and others don't, and the people who have it should use it for sure, but understand that not everyone can. The worst part right now is it feels like the powers that be are doing everything they can to make it so no one has a choice.
I want to push back against a thing that pops up - the "well, it's complicated." First, that framing only justifies inaction, it creates an excuse for not taking a stand or changing things, and conflating ordinary consumption with bag-chasing erases meaningful distinctions. Second, it's NOT complicated! A lot of things people do for money are bad! Those things can be UNDERSTANDABLE, the reasons people do them can be sympathetic, we're all getting screwed over by capitalism here. But it's still bad to mortgage your art, image, and relationship with your listener to a bank commercial, and it really just gets worse these days as the parasocial nature of the internet makes them ask for more and more of you. Anyway!
Looking forward to the BBSP x Honda Fit Yurple Edition. Godspeed!
As a fellow oldhead, I really loved this one. While I don't make any claims to being Buddhist -this conversation reminds me of the principle of "right livelihood." Our labor is part of our lives and as such should be moving towards generosity and composed of peaceful actions (as best we can). Earnest I know!
Agree with others here that this can be complicated. I work at an academic library and the university does things with their money that I certainly don't approve of. But I love working with our students and that tradeoff is something that feels justified. If I had the opportunity to license a song to support my kid I would, but no to Raytheon.
beautiful way to put it
and how do we reconcile the message of this post with the platform on which it is published (the one that recently took 100m from a16z and then started sending out push notifs with swastikas)
I've been wondering about this too. I think the Plane could easily either just switch to their own dedicated site or use IIRC Ghost as a platform (there are a few other sletters that have switched to it, I think)
But presumably even if they were to switch to their own site or some other platform, if they still wanted to collect subscription dues they'd have to use venmo or shopify or paypal or any of the other systems that all have their own varying forms of ethical issues.
Venmo and Shopify and Paypal aren't directly working with literal Nazis and then saying they feel a moral obligation to work with Nazis in the name of free speech or wetf
To be clear, I'm not defending substack by any stretch, and if BBSP went to another platform I'd follow them there and probably feel better about it. But the two points I'm getting at are that a lot of these sites are backended or bankrolled or otherwise supported in ways we don't love, and I mean...at the end of the day, we're all a little complicit by continuing to subscribe and comment here, right? We're all forcibly embroiled in ethically murky choices daily through no fault of our own. The place I went to undergrad used Aramark Corp for food service, and students were required to buy a meal plan on campus, and Aramark makes a ton of money through private prison contracts as well, so by going to college and trying to educate myself and become a better person, which I hope I did, I also had to contribute a little bit of my tuition dollars to an objectively shitty corporation.
Shopify actually has been challenged on that multiple times for hosting and supporting webstores that sell Nazi merch (not just talking about Yeezy Supply either).
personally my issue with Substack is less about their free-speech approach and more about the increasingly walled garden they are building, in detriment of the open web
they want to be just another platform and own the content so they can monetize it
now people don't have blogs or newsletters, they have "substacks" and i think that sucks so much
John Gruber explained it better: https://daringfireball.net/2024/11/regarding_and_well_against_substack
ill be the happiest if they get off Substack but given the nuance of the article, i think they're aware of those issues and not being hypocritical
"There might be things we do at the Plane that Even More Morally Pure Beings than us would groan at. We are not here to Cast Judgment on anyone."
check out https://leavesubstack.com/
Yeah would love it if our hosts migrated elsewhere tbh
“They’re reminding us that, even in 2025, things can be made, and life can be lived, on other terms.” If you didn’t stick those commas in there I might have breezed by this. But you know how to write dude. Loved reading this so much.
I’m so thirsty for those Wanderers
Soon come
Hell yeah Honda Fit
I wish that you would leave substack— sticking it out here is I think worse than taking advertising because it creates a moral complication for everyone who wants to continue to read your newsletter! I personally want to delete my sub stack app, but there are a few newsletters that I can’t let go of and that’s holding me back from doing what is clearly the right thing. I know I’m wrong for not quitting but it is even more swagless for you guys because you guys have clout!
What are your qualms with Substack? Not challenging your stance just curious.
My issue is that they not only are hosting neo-nazi newsletters that explicitly advocate for white superiority and supremacy but are also boosting those newsletters algorithmically. I find that extremely disturbing and do not want to support that in anyway. Some of my favorite newsletters have already moved thankfully. But I do think larger newsletters like Spyplane could have a big impact if they objected.
Damn I want one of those Fits. Hope my '01 two door golf can keep it together until small cars cycle back in...
🙏 the golf and GTI might be the last cool compacts standing
IMO I don’t mind when an artist or company or what have you, decides to take the check from a Big Evil Soulless Company. I like to view it as “ let me just do this quick and easy thing that probably takes little to no effort and make $$$ that will then fund this beautiful independent utopia im building for my family and my community”. The recent Toro y Moi Mcondalds collab is a great example, sure its an evil company that is poisoning the world but if they want to throw the bag his way that will fund his life, music, his cool new store that he probably employs a few people at,then have at it. Its situations like the Our Legacy/LVMH that I cant help but scoff. Because they most likely got too big for their britches and chose to expand quite a bit they now need the backing of a bigger player. The problem with that is now you’re at the behest of this monster because its going to want its ROI and then some from you, you have essentially tainted your independent utopian well by letting a company like LVMH in.
THIS.
You know what would be even more radical tho? Tell us how much money you make thru this gig and what it takes (beyond immaculate taste, etc.) to make it as a writer without taking those corny ad dollars. Serious request.
Haha I started working in magazines out of college two decades ago 👴 and have been a journalist ever since. I've benefited from tons of great editors over that time.
Having something unique to say, a strong POV, seems to be fairly requisite for crowdfunding-era success, and publishing consistently is pretty key if you're going to ask people to pay for your writing. But there's no one blueprint. For our part we started this sletter at our kitchen table in 2020 when the "space" was young, and we have improvised & made everything up along the way. Generally I'll say that reading a lot of good writing all the time is the best way to become a stronger writer yourself.
Mr and Mrs Spyplane - what would you recommend as 'good writing' that you've been digging recently?
to name a small handful truly off the dome
As far as newsletters, this one crossed my radar the other day and I read a couple great, funny, lively essays there:
https://emersonrosenthal.substack.com/
Read Max by Max Read is great
**
As far as current nonfiction journalism, short- and longform, Rachel Aviv is one of the truly great magazine writers, Patrick Radden Keefe, too, Jon Mooallem, Vinson Cunningham, Kelefa Sanneh
As far as classic GOATS Jamaica Kincaid, Denis Johnson, Kennedy Fraser, and The Sentence God PG Wodehouse
https://www.blackbirdspyplane.com/p/tv-is-over-its-wodehouse-summer
oh and as far as books there's a bunch we dig on our bookshop page https://bookshop.org/shop/blackbirdspyplane